Buying Dangerously

Bad McAfee Gets Worse

Consider this - after a long previous attempt to cancel my McAfee auto renewal (see prior post) it was finally cancelled.  Now my credit card statement arrives and there is the charge again!!

In the course of another painfully and needlessly complex waste of time to cancel it again, this was the culmination and it brought up a whole new bad practice on McAfees part.  So bad, that I ask McAfee to respond.  They are either getting very greedy or very careless.  Either will lose my trust and that is deadly to a company that sells software that must trust.

November 21, 2006  About 2:20 pm, PST.

Chat thru the McAfee Customer Service Site.
Please wait while we find a customer service representative to assist you...
You have been connected to Kevin Peter.
Kevin Peter: Thank you for contacting McAfee customer service. How may I help you today?
Mike kelly: I cancelled a renewal subscription and was billed
Kevin Peter: Mike, I'll be happy to help you.
Kevin Peter: One moment please, while I look up your account details. I appreciate your patience.
Kevin Peter: Mike, I see that you have valid McAfee products registered under the e-mail address [email protected].
Kevin Peter: I completely understand your frustration and will be more than happy to help you.
Kevin Peter: After researching your account, we have found that your subscription was auto renewed on 10/25/2006. Would you like for us to refund this recent charge and cancel the McAfee Always on Protection feature so that you will not be billed again in the future?
Mike kelly: Yes, that would be nice. This is the second time you will have done this (see Case Number 20452399) so I'm wondering why it didnt cancel the first time.
Kevin Peter: I understand your concern and would like to apologize for the inconvenience caused.
Kevin Peter: I'll be happy to help you.
Kevin Peter: Please give me a moment while I process your refund. I appreciate your patience.
Kevin Peter: The McAfee Always on Protection feature for your account under the e-mail address [email protected] has been cancelled. Your account will no longer be automatically renewed.
Kevin Peter: As requested, we have refunded the McAfee Always on Protection charges of ($39.99), which will be credited to your account within 3 - 5 working days, or before you receive your next credit card statement.
Kevin Peter: Mike, I would like to recap what we have been working on today to ensure that you are comfortable with resolution that I have provided. You wanted a refund for the McAfee product that was auto renewed under your account, I have refunded it, and cancelled your auto renewal feature. Is there anything else I can assist you with today?
Mike kelly: I also wanted to know why it wasnt cancelled the first time since that made me spend another half hour trying to get it changed again.
Kevin Peter: Mike, actually you have been cancelled the Auto-renewal feature of Virus Scan Plus product in the first time.
Kevin Peter: This time you have got virus scan product upgraded and thus you have been billed.
Kevin Peter: Now i have cancelled Auto-renewal feature of your account and thus you will not be credited in the future.
Mike kelly: I'm not following you. The auto renewal was cancelled, so you upgraded me and charged me anyway? Also, do you mean I wont be charged (not credited) in the future?
Kevin Peter: Mike, you have got Auto-renewal feature to every products in your account. In the first time you have been renewed due to the Auto-renewal of Virus Scan Plus and been refunded after cancelling the Auto-renewal feature of Virus Scan plus.
Kevin Peter: Now you have been renewed due to Auto-renewal of Virus Scan product and thus i have cancelled the Auto-renewal feature of Virus Scan product and refunded.
Kevin Peter: Thus i have cancelled all the Auto-renewal feature of your account and thus you will not be credited in the future.
Mike kelly: You're saying I had two products? Virus Scan and Virus Scan Plus?
Kevin Peter: Yes, you are correct.
Kevin Peter: Virus Scan Plus is the upgraded version of Virus Scan.
Mike kelly: And I was on auto renew for both of them?
Kevin Peter: Mike i have cancelled the Auto-renewal feature of your both product and thus you will not been credited in the future.
Mike kelly: So when I got the upgraded version of Virus Scan, I was continued to be charged for an auto renew for the old version?
Kevin Peter: Yes you are correct. That is the reason you have been charged now. And i have given you the refund for the charge of Auto-renewal of Virus Scan upgradation.
Mike kelly: Was this a mistake or is it the usual way this is done?
Kevin Peter: Mike, this is the mistake of our customer support agents, we should have cancelled the Auto-renewal feature of your both products. But by mistake we have cancelled only the Auto-renewal feature of Virus Scan Plus in the first time.
Kevin Peter: Now i have cancelled the Auto-renewal feature of your account and thus you will not be credited in the future.
Mike kelly: I meant was it normal for mcafee to charge for subscription renewal for the old and new version?
Kevin Peter: Customers were automatically renewed to ensure that the computer had continuous protection. They signs up for this service when you accepted the initial agreement before installing the product.
Mike kelly: Good to know. Could you give me a reference number for this cancellation?
Kevin Peter: Mike you will be getting your reference number within six working hours of our company to your email address.
Mike kelly: Thank you.
Kevin Peter: Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Mike kelly: No, thanks.

Bad McAfee on Automatic

Kelly's Buying Dangerously Grade for McAfee: 'F', for difficulty in cancellation of auto renewal and for auto renewing at twice the current price.

Less than a week after the original post this happened:

ALERT from The Wall Street Journal. Oct. 11, 2006 McAfee said CEO and Chairman George Samenuk plans to retire and President Kevin Weiss was terminated from the company in the wake of findings of its stock-options probe. The software maker named Dale Fuller as interim chief executive officer and president."  See comment at end.

An email from McAfee arrived saying they had automatically renewed my subscription to Viruscan Plus for $39.95.  Since I was now using Symantec products on all my computers, I didnt want to renew it so I started the dreaded 'cancellation' process.  It's usually very hard to stop/cancel/return some product or service than it is to buy it.  This isn't a mistake, it's the plan.  The strategy is to make it hard.  Protect the sale, screw the customer (and the brand).  If its true, it qualifies as one of Mikes Bad Companies.  Is McAfee one of them?

I tried to find out how to cancel.  Nearly impossibe, as it turned out.

So I clicked on it and spent 20 minutes trying to cancel.  Try it.  Nothing works.  So I spent 10 minutes trying to contact Customer Support.  Heh, heh, you know what that does, leads you into a Knowledge Base of everything but what you want.  Delay, delay, obfuscate, etc.  This isnt looking good for a high rating from Mike. 

Finally I am getting closer to getting to a person: I have to fill out a 'ticket'.  Presumable to make me line up for something, but no matter, I was finally going to get to someone.  At this point I wondered what they charge on their site for the product.  Was the renewal a good deal as claimed?  I went to a fresh McAfee site (not from my cancellation ticket page) and found they offered the product new for $19.95.  HALF of what they charged me for the good deal renewal.  HALF!!   This wasn't shaping up for a good grade from Mike!

So I returned to filling out the ticket and pointed out my chagrin at not being able to cancel and finding they had automatically screwed, er, renewed me at twice the current price.  I pressed send, and the next screen said it has NOT been sent and I should read through a few more totally irrelevant solutions from their Knowledge Base.  I declined and said send it.   I also testily added that I would expose them in 'my blog' if it turned out that they were just making it hard, and this was their chance to straighten me out.

I'm waiting for their comments.

Monday -

response from McAfee - we cant find your order.  Maybe you ordered it direct from McAfee? Try them.  Who are these people?  How did I get routed to them?

So I go to the McAfee site and ask for a live chat:

Please wait while we find a customer service representative to assist you...
All agents are currently busy. Please stand by.
You have been connected to Regina Solomon.
Regina Solomon: Thank you for contacting McAfee customer service. How may I help you today?
mike kelly: did you get my last message?
Regina Solomon: Hello Mike, I'll be happy to help you.
Regina Solomon: No, Mike. Could you please type it again?
mike kelly: I want to cancel a recently auto renewed subscription.
Regina Solomon: Thank you for the information.
Regina Solomon: One moment please, while I look up your account details. I appreciate your patience.
Regina Solomon: Mike, I see that you have valid McAfee products registered under the e-mail address [email protected].
mike kelly: What is your question?
Regina Solomon: If I understand you correctly Mike, you wish to get the refund for the McAfee product which was auto renewed under your account recently?
mike kelly: ...yes, very good.
Regina Solomon: Could you please let me know the reason for your refund?
mike kelly: I'll try this slowly: because I am cancelling the renewal.
Regina Solomon: Mike, did you receive my previous response?
mike kelly: yes
Regina Solomon: May I know the reason for your refund?

Then, my battery failed. 

Currently experiencing network delays, one moment please....
Your session has ended. You may now close this window.

Went home to get the ac adapter and plunged back in at McAfee.

Please wait while we find a customer service representative to assist you...
You have been connected to Kevin Peter.
Kevin Peter: Thank you for contacting McAfee customer service. How may I help you today?
Mike kelly: Please cancel my recent automatic renewal to McAfee anti virus service.
Kevin Peter: Mike, I'll be happy to help you.
Kevin Peter: One moment please, while I look up your account details. I appreciate your patience.
Kevin Peter: Mike, I see that you have valid McAfee products registered under the e-mail address [email protected].
Mike kelly: And?
Kevin Peter: May I know the reason for the cancellation?
Mike kelly: I am using another product.
Kevin Peter: After researching your account, we have found that your subscription was auto renewed on 10/2/2006. Would you like for us to refund this recent charge and cancel the McAfee Always on Protection feature so that you will not be billed again in the future?
Mike kelly: yes.
Kevin Peter: Please give me a moment while I process your refund. I appreciate your patience.
Kevin Peter: As requested, we have refunded the McAfee Always on Protection charges of ($39.99), which will be credited to your account within 3 - 5 working days, or before you receive your next credit card statement. You will be getting your email confirmation within six hours.
Mike kelly: OK, I have another question.
Kevin Peter: I'll be happy to help you.
Mike kelly: The auto renewal offer was for $39.99 and I went to McAfee site and found the same offer for $19.95. Am I missing something here?
Kevin Peter: Please give me a moment to research your issue. Thank you for your patience.
Kevin Peter: Mike, yes for the special offer it would be the amount you have seen.
Mike kelly: So the amount charged on auto renewal is not the lowest price.
Kevin Peter: Yes, it is the correct amount Auto-renewed.
Kevin Peter: I would like to ensure you're satisfied with the support I offered. Is there anything else I may assist you with today?
Mike kelly: Your last answer is not clear to me. Could you read my question again and try to make your response clearer?
Kevin Peter: Mike, am sorry. I could understand your question. Yes it is not lowest price.
Mike kelly: Is that a policy?
Kevin Peter: I would recommend that you contact McAfee Customer Service number at 408-992-8599 in order to know about your account details.
Mike kelly: Will they know of this conversation so I dont have to start all over?
Kevin Peter: Yes. you please explain briefly they could understand your issue.
Mike kelly: But will they have this discussion thread that I can refer to?
Kevin Peter: I understand your concern. Please contact us with this case reference number 20452399, if you have any additional issues.
Kevin Peter: Mike, you please refer to this case number.
Mike kelly: I have one more question: why is it so easy to oreder something new and so hard to cancel at McAfee?
Kevin Peter: Mike, we have processed you the easy cancellation source.
Kevin Peter: I understand your concern and would like to apologize for the inconvenience caused.
Mike kelly: I'm not referring to this call which worked well. The problem is finding out how to get hold of you.
Kevin Peter: You please refer your case number and can easily contact us.
Mike kelly: thanks, kevin.
Kevin Peter: Thank you for contacting McAfee Customer Support Center. If you need further assistance please visit us again.
Your session has ended. You may now close this window.

Bottom line -

McAfee Caught Red Handed being Bad!

I suspect this will set off an alarm somewhere at McAfee.  Why is that?  Because they 1. did something wrong (giving best customers the worst deals; breaking the trust in the relationship), and 2. someone admitted it (which they will think of as the problem and really it was a healthy admitting of a problem on one persons part - this is called transparancy).  The real problem is that they made an offer for automatic renewal that, at least in this case, proves that people who trust them for auto renewal are taken advantage of.  Some call it, screwed. 

As for my question on why it is so hard to cancel a subscription vs buy it, the person working with me saw that it was taken care of quickly on his part, which was absolutely true.  He did it well and the system worked well at that point.  But it took me about an hour to cancel an auto renewal that could have been much more efficiently done by my just replying back the the auto renewal notice that I was not approving it.  Would have taken me 30 seconds, tops.  So I spent an hour more to get it done because McAfee's systems architecture requires it.  Like, by design.  Hey, Delay by Design!

Let us know your experiences. 

BTW, I am not a disgruntled former employee of McAfee, nor an employee or consultant or whatever of a competitor.  I am a customer, now a former customer. 

MFK

Less than a week after my naming McAfee a Bad Company, McAfee announced the Chairman/CEO and President are leaving the company.  Wow, Results!!  Guess there were a few more Bad Company things going on.  I'd like to claim a direct connection between my actions and todays results, but chances are, there is not one, other than if you find a company acting badly, it is likely to show up in many ways, not just customer experience.  This is a great thing to learn.   I'm going to send a copy of this blog to McAfee PR and the new President and see what happens.  I'll let you know.

Cluelessness Classified

My last post was July 5, 2006 and now its the ending hours of August 12.  This is not good in the spirit of blogging and I'll have to do better.  I had only told three people about this training wheel blog and that makes three who came here, plus my own 7 times or so to add on things like pictures and such.  Stats say 40 hits!  Who are they?  The power of my refrigerator!  And Google.

It's dangerous to buy stuff.  Some people laugh when I say the blog name, and most start telling me their stories.  I asked a couple of people to send their comments on their experiences and they did.  But I have a large folder with the name 'experience' on it and into that folder I throw all kinds of stuff that get sent to me and in ads I see.  I started to call it the 'bad companies' syndrome. 

KitchenAid, Home Depot, Bank of America were cited in a previous posting (actually, my only previous post) as doing bad things, at least to me and that's who counts.

So I've developed a starter list of Cluelessness, not the companies, but the way companies seem to be clueless -

1. "Problem? What Problem?" The ways they have to contact them - phone, email, mail?, web all assume that you only want to talk to them about what they want to talk about, not what you want to talk about.  When was the last time you heard "Press 5 to tell us what we did wrong"?  No, its "Press 5 to order our new package of sports programs".

2. "Part? What Part?" You experience some quality failure such as a recent post from Judy on HP's not having a replacement pen (what is more likely to get lost on a tablet pc than the pen - aka, the stylus?) for a not-that-old Compaq tablet computer that cost you $2000 and HP doesnt have a clue as to how to get the part.

3. "The policy is the solution!"  You have a problem and they tell you why it's that way.  THIS DOESN'T SOLVE THE PROBLEM.   This was the problem at Bank of America in a prior post where the rather unpleasant person at Customer Solutions told me that the bank cannot let me know my checking account was overdrawn except by snail mail that took 6 days, but were totally able to charge me $34 for every debit transaction that came in in the meantime.  I asked why?  Unpleasant person says - we cant do that.  I asked why they didnt take the money from my other account and UP says: we cant do that.  Then he declared the problem solved and refused my request to talk to someone at the bank who would tell me why not.

4. "Gotchas, AKA "Double secret probation!"  This is where something happens, maybe you are late on a payment and maybe its for a good reason, or not, but terrible things happen as a result because you were on 'Double Secret Probation!' (DSP).  "Its in the contract that you agreed to."  For example for Credit Card companies love DSP so much - they can whip that 4% balance transfer they promised you into a investor-pleasing 20% because you paid your phone bill late, possibly even because it was incorrect.  You think they care?   DSP is any kind of "Gotcha!" where you find out later what the small print, or not print said.  Credit card companies (again) also like to send you the rest of what you agreed to in your application AFTER you apply.  Kind of like signing a contract to buy a car and they'll let you know what it will cost later. 

5. (This one needs a good name- can you suggest one?).   I've heard of three examples in the past week where, during a long and discouraging call with Customer Service, the company rep ends the call with some incredibly clueless attempt to sell you something else.  It happend to Judy at HP where they were totally unable to supply the missing part for the $2000 tablet and after acknowledging their sorrow, they moved to ask her if she would like to buy a new one!

There's five.  Got more?  Let us know.

Mike

Customer Service with Duct Tape

KitchenAid Warranty Fix with Tape

When my new Kitchenaid refrigerator was about 18 months old it developed cracks in the plastic lining.  A call to Kitchenaid confirmed it was under warrany and they sent out a repairman who put a piece of white tape over the cracks and pronounced it fixed. Here's what I said: WHITE TAPE!!?? Here's what he said: "That's all they would authorize."  See the Taped Fridge.

Home Depot Warranty Denied

I had Home Depot install new kitchen flooring. Unfortunately they didn't level two depressions in the floor first, which would have been good worksmanship.  They came back out, cut large flaps in the flooring, leveled the floor and glued the flaps down. Over time, the flaps came loose and are now duct taped down while I argue with Home Depot, endlessly.  Over the years, they first agreed to redo the floor, but didnt, changed managers, lost the records, and now the store manager tells me it won't be fixed because I dont have a receipt.  See the Taped Flooring.

I look at my taped floor and taped fridge each time I walk into the kitchen and associate them with the brands, Kitchenaid:Bad, Home Depot:Bad.  Now I ask you, how likely do you think I am to go back to these firms after being reminded of their broken promises every day for years?  Yes, not very.

But guess what?  These companies don't know that.  Most firms have no way to quantify the effects of being bad to customers on their bottom line.  Not today's bottom line, anyone can fool those numbers, but the tomorrows bottom line, when your spreading bad reputation fights and eventually destroys your ability to Attract and Keep customers.  That's how it works.  More later.

Everybody has similar examples of bad treatment as customers, so much and so widely does this exist that buying has turned dangerous.  One bad move at a credit card company and your 4% introductory rate goes to 24%.  And their definition of a bad move gets tighter and tighter - like paying your phone bill a few days late.  Becoming a customer is increasingly fraught with danger from the 'fine print' or the non-delivery of what was promised.  Gotchas!

See the article in Washington Post Angry Customers Use Web to Shame Firms.

So we will fight back.  Not with just shameful exposure (well, some) but with your well-honed thinking and cutting humor and then, even better, business reasons why and how these bad companies are screwing up their future.  Maybe if the management doesn't respond, the investors will. 

Bank of America tells you when you are satisfied ...

I opened the mail recently and found that Bank of America was charging me $34 in insufficient fund fees for every item they received, including checks and debit charges.  Obviously something was wrong with my account (likely my fault) and they decided to notify me by mail which took 6 days to reach me which gave them 5 more days to collect fees.  Eventually they charged over $300 in fees before I heard about, and fixed, the problem.  I asked why they didn't notify me by email, or a phone call?  (A great way to use automated phone service which they otherwise excel in). They would say: "Hey, there are no funds in your account and charges are coming in!!"  I also asked why they continued to honor debit charges which were being checked against my account on line.  If one were turned down, it would be a signal to me that there were no funds in my accout.  But no, they honored them, charging a $34 fee for each debit, no matter the amount, many of which were for less than the fee.  Finally, I asked: OK, since you couldnt notify me, why didnt you move funds from my other account, sitting right there with plenty of money in it.  They said this: We cant do that.  I said this: Why not.  To all of my questions, they explained merely what they do, not why they cant do what I need.  When I pointed out that these policies meant they treated a long-time (22 years)customer poorly, and I would like to talk to a supervisor, here's what the Bank of America Customer Solutions person said: "No. I will not escalate this."  Pausing only to do a little gasp and raise my eyebrows, I said, "But doesn't the customer get to say when there is or is not a solution?" And he said, No. Hear the recording (Link).  His solution - check your balance on line every day to make sure nothing is wrong.  So much for the peace of mind associated with Bank of America.

More than rants, more than shame, time to fix bad company behavior...

But this is not just a rant blog.  More like a journal of how being a customer has its own dangers.  Every day I get offers as a consumer and small business person that just fry me.  I'll talk about them here.  And I'll classify the problems - is this company clueless or maliceous?  Is it a problem of performance or of character?  Do they have a good point or are they just hiding the truth so you buy and get caught.  We will use the terms used at these companies - like "touch points" to show them where and how they should really think of customers.

Readers are invited to comment and add their own experiences but should also agree to step back and analyze the problem as they see it.  Rant with reasons!  Many of us have jobs and lives where we do or wish we could do, smart things and we can tell why companies do stupid things to their customers (and employees, and investors, etc.) Companies need to see the results of their behavior in the market.

Coming soon -

"Cluelessness Classified"

"Character and Personality Classification - does this company really care about you at all?"